chickenfeet: (scotland)
[personal profile] chickenfeet
Being a meditation on the relative obscurity of Hereward the Wake.

I have come to the conclusion that there is a fundamental difference in how the English define a "national hero" compared to the other inhabitants of the British isles.

The first essential is success. The success should be spectacular and involve lots of dead Frenchmen. At a pinch Germans will do. This is the second hero criterion, credible opposition. Scots, Welsh, Irish etc don't count. Like in the Six Nations, victory is expected. Winning against the S/W/I may be cause for mild satisfaction. Losing to them makes you a big girl's blouse.

Now we turn to the S/W/I. Here there are also two criteria for national herodom. The first is that you must not achieve anything of lasting value (in the case of the Irish you don't even have to try though I think you get a bonus if you do). But the crucial qualification is that to be a SWI hero you have to be executed, preferably horribly and preferably by the English. (The Scots though allow execution by other Scots).

Now to flesh out the paradigm with examples. The quintessential English hero is Nelson. He won against proper opposition (even if the French were handicapped by the Spanish), he killed lots of them and he gets bonus points for being killed romantically in the process.

The typical Scots hero is William Wallace who didn't do anything much except get executed in the approved manner. Montrose is a good example of being a national hero despite only ever fighting other Scots and getting executed by them.

The typical Irish hero is Kevin Barry. They still sing songs about the little shit whose only claim to fame is that he shot a policeman in the back and was dragged screaming to the gallows.

The Welsh are a bit harder to pin down as it's been so long since they have had any heroes but the various Llywellyns and Glyndwrs were a bit like Welsh three quarters. Brilliant in a flashy way for about five minutes then completely disappearing from sight or getting cut up by the English.

Thus we see that Hereward never had a chance. If he'd been Welsh he'd probably be on the back of a commemorative 5p piece or something.

Date: 2006-04-11 09:16 pm (UTC)
nanila: me (Default)
From: [personal profile] nanila
Ha. I think in the case of the S/W/I, the essential qualification is to have rejected compromise (hence, usually failing to achieve anything of lasting value).

Date: 2006-04-11 09:29 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] sollersuk.livejournal.com
The entertaining thing about Kevin Barry is what I have heard about the other one.

Date: 2006-04-11 09:31 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] anneth.livejournal.com
Brilliant!

Date: 2006-04-11 09:43 pm (UTC)
gillo: (Default)
From: [personal profile] gillo
You have a good point, though arguably Robert the Bruce counts and achieved something, as did Llewellyn the Great (not to be confused with Llewellyn the Last, his grandson.) The English seem to respect Scott, who failed but are now very uncomfortable about laying claim to any national figure instrumental in building or running the Empire as a hero in case it turns out to be politically incorrect these days - viz Wolfe at the Heights of Abraham. Or Alfred the Great and the cakes. No longer taught as far as I can tell.

Hm.

Date: 2006-04-11 10:07 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] fearsclave.livejournal.com
Scott, Mallory, and Irvine? There's a whole category there, involving getting stuck way too deep into horribly inhospitable environments with woefully inadequate gear and heroically dying of exposure.

Date: 2006-04-11 10:10 pm (UTC)

Date: 2006-04-12 07:47 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] dyddgu.livejournal.com
Murray Pittock has an interesting chapter on this in his "Celtic Identity and the British Image", something like 'they fought in the war, but all fell'. I think the important thing to remember is that this whole "failed hero" malarkey is mainly a product of the Romantics, and in its modern incarnation is pretty much the fault of Macpherson's Ossian, who writes the paradigmatic failed/feminine hero. (It also occurs to me that it probably also is extrapolated from the fact that most of our earliest poetry is elegiac, which in a warrior society isn't actually all that weird).

Welsh heroes tend mostly to be stabbed in the back by their own side, usually power-hungry brothers (cf. Llywelyn ein Llyw Olaf - and actually, on your side, also Hereward, interestingly). If that's not happened, then they disappear a la Arthur to come again when the nation is in peril &c. (and there's a legend about Hereward to that effect, too!)

I'm still really surprised that Hereward didn't make it into the pantheon, though - for all your argument above does indeed hold water, in the 17th and 18th Centuries there was a great vogue for all things Saxon and non-Norman - all interesting info is in Rosemary Sweet's "Antiquaries : the discovery of the past in eighteenth century Britain."

Date: 2006-04-12 09:59 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] f4f3.livejournal.com
Wallace, the Bruce and Rob Roy are probably the greatest Scottish heroes in military terms, but it could be argued (of course it could, I'm doing it now) that Robert Burns is the hero Scotland is happiest with - he gets his own Day, for one thing, and has more statues propped around the place than anyone elese i can think of. For some strange reason it tickles me that we celebrate an amorous piss-head who died young and left behind lots of broken hearts and some lovely words, rather than a soldier or a politician.

Scots are also very fond of our missonaries and scientists: Livingstone has his own museum, Graham Bell a nice plaque in Helensburgh and Adam Smith his very own motorway sign.

Date: 2006-04-12 04:14 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] ex-greythist387.livejournal.com
Perhaps it's that the Danes don't count as opponents, either, or that things are too murky in the fens...?

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