On National Heroes
Apr. 11th, 2006 05:07 pm![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
chickenfeetBeing a meditation on the relative obscurity of Hereward the Wake.
I have come to the conclusion that there is a fundamental difference in how the English define a "national hero" compared to the other inhabitants of the British isles.
The first essential is success. The success should be spectacular and involve lots of dead Frenchmen. At a pinch Germans will do. This is the second hero criterion, credible opposition. Scots, Welsh, Irish etc don't count. Like in the Six Nations, victory is expected. Winning against the S/W/I may be cause for mild satisfaction. Losing to them makes you a big girl's blouse.
Now we turn to the S/W/I. Here there are also two criteria for national herodom. The first is that you must not achieve anything of lasting value (in the case of the Irish you don't even have to try though I think you get a bonus if you do). But the crucial qualification is that to be a SWI hero you have to be executed, preferably horribly and preferably by the English. (The Scots though allow execution by other Scots).
Now to flesh out the paradigm with examples. The quintessential English hero is Nelson. He won against proper opposition (even if the French were handicapped by the Spanish), he killed lots of them and he gets bonus points for being killed romantically in the process.
The typical Scots hero is William Wallace who didn't do anything much except get executed in the approved manner. Montrose is a good example of being a national hero despite only ever fighting other Scots and getting executed by them.
The typical Irish hero is Kevin Barry. They still sing songs about the little shit whose only claim to fame is that he shot a policeman in the back and was dragged screaming to the gallows.
The Welsh are a bit harder to pin down as it's been so long since they have had any heroes but the various Llywellyns and Glyndwrs were a bit like Welsh three quarters. Brilliant in a flashy way for about five minutes then completely disappearing from sight or getting cut up by the English.
Thus we see that Hereward never had a chance. If he'd been Welsh he'd probably be on the back of a commemorative 5p piece or something.
I have come to the conclusion that there is a fundamental difference in how the English define a "national hero" compared to the other inhabitants of the British isles.
The first essential is success. The success should be spectacular and involve lots of dead Frenchmen. At a pinch Germans will do. This is the second hero criterion, credible opposition. Scots, Welsh, Irish etc don't count. Like in the Six Nations, victory is expected. Winning against the S/W/I may be cause for mild satisfaction. Losing to them makes you a big girl's blouse.
Now we turn to the S/W/I. Here there are also two criteria for national herodom. The first is that you must not achieve anything of lasting value (in the case of the Irish you don't even have to try though I think you get a bonus if you do). But the crucial qualification is that to be a SWI hero you have to be executed, preferably horribly and preferably by the English. (The Scots though allow execution by other Scots).
Now to flesh out the paradigm with examples. The quintessential English hero is Nelson. He won against proper opposition (even if the French were handicapped by the Spanish), he killed lots of them and he gets bonus points for being killed romantically in the process.
The typical Scots hero is William Wallace who didn't do anything much except get executed in the approved manner. Montrose is a good example of being a national hero despite only ever fighting other Scots and getting executed by them.
The typical Irish hero is Kevin Barry. They still sing songs about the little shit whose only claim to fame is that he shot a policeman in the back and was dragged screaming to the gallows.
The Welsh are a bit harder to pin down as it's been so long since they have had any heroes but the various Llywellyns and Glyndwrs were a bit like Welsh three quarters. Brilliant in a flashy way for about five minutes then completely disappearing from sight or getting cut up by the English.
Thus we see that Hereward never had a chance. If he'd been Welsh he'd probably be on the back of a commemorative 5p piece or something.
![[identity profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/openid.png){kind=small}
no subject
Date: 2006-04-11 09:16 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2006-04-11 09:30 pm (UTC)Scott and Shackleton...
Date: 2006-04-11 10:14 pm (UTC)And I agree that Shackleton was a major studmuffin. Even if he did have Scott et al. to learn from, and wasn't very good at heroic pathos, what he pulled off was nothing short of awe-inspiring.
no subject
Date: 2006-04-11 09:29 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2006-04-11 10:59 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2006-04-12 05:53 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2006-04-11 09:31 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2006-04-11 09:43 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2006-04-11 09:47 pm (UTC)Of course he does! He took Berwick on Tweed from the Scots for the English!
no subject
Date: 2006-04-11 09:51 pm (UTC)I should have thought that bashing Danes would be considered the height of political correctness nowadays.
no subject
Date: 2006-04-11 10:25 pm (UTC)enemiespartners in Europe now, must we? Let alone the Québecois.Danes are in Europe too, so we mustn't upset them either in case we need them.
no subject
Date: 2006-04-11 10:28 pm (UTC)I'm sure the pollies weasel about that but does anyone believe them?
no subject
Date: 2006-04-11 10:35 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2006-04-11 10:37 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2006-04-11 11:42 pm (UTC)Hastings must be thoroughly revenged, after all.
no subject
Date: 2006-04-12 10:50 am (UTC)Not to mention Bouvines, Castillon and all the others that English kids don't learn about at school
no subject
Date: 2006-04-12 02:19 pm (UTC)You have read your Sellar and Yeatman, surely?
no subject
Date: 2006-04-12 02:28 pm (UTC)Many a time and oft. Seriously though, there was a survey some years ago when British sixth formers and their French equivalents were asked to name the major battles of the Hundred Years War. There was no overlap between the two listd.
no subject
Date: 2006-04-12 06:20 pm (UTC)Hm.
Date: 2006-04-11 10:07 pm (UTC)Re: Hm.
Date: 2006-04-11 10:25 pm (UTC)Re: Hm.
Date: 2006-04-11 10:27 pm (UTC)Re: Hm.
Date: 2006-04-11 10:30 pm (UTC)Re: Hm.
Date: 2006-04-11 10:36 pm (UTC)Re: Hm.
Date: 2006-04-11 10:39 pm (UTC)Re: Hm.
Date: 2006-04-12 11:25 am (UTC)Re: Hm.
Date: 2006-04-12 07:33 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2006-04-11 10:10 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2006-04-12 07:47 am (UTC)Welsh heroes tend mostly to be stabbed in the back by their own side, usually power-hungry brothers (cf. Llywelyn ein Llyw Olaf - and actually, on your side, also Hereward, interestingly). If that's not happened, then they disappear a la Arthur to come again when the nation is in peril &c. (and there's a legend about Hereward to that effect, too!)
I'm still really surprised that Hereward didn't make it into the pantheon, though - for all your argument above does indeed hold water, in the 17th and 18th Centuries there was a great vogue for all things Saxon and non-Norman - all interesting info is in Rosemary Sweet's "Antiquaries : the discovery of the past in eighteenth century Britain."
no subject
Date: 2006-04-12 10:54 am (UTC)I'm always struck by how relatively historical Purcell's King Arthur is.
no subject
Date: 2006-04-12 09:59 am (UTC)Scots are also very fond of our missonaries and scientists: Livingstone has his own museum, Graham Bell a nice plaque in Helensburgh and Adam Smith his very own motorway sign.
no subject
Date: 2006-04-12 10:55 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2006-04-12 11:23 am (UTC)I'd love to know where the Cecil Rhodes Stadium is though.
no subject
Date: 2006-04-12 11:27 am (UTC)The Cecil Rhodes Stadium is the home of Bishop's Stortford FC, last ever winners of the FA Amateur Cup.
no subject
Date: 2006-04-12 11:36 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2006-04-12 11:40 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2006-04-12 11:47 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2006-04-12 11:50 am (UTC)From Merseyside
no subject
Date: 2006-04-12 04:14 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2006-04-12 04:23 pm (UTC)There could indeed be a general fen murkiness operating here though. A generalized theory that nothing important happens in East Anglia perhaps? This should probably be known as the "Turnip Principle".
no subject
Date: 2006-04-12 10:27 pm (UTC)